Wednesday, January 26, 2011

Danny O'Bryan interviews jazz orchestra leader Woody Herman - April 1978

from the up-coming book "Derby City Jazz."

D. O. Welcome to Louisville, Ky Woody.


W. H. Thank you.


D. O. Jazz like everything else is in constant flux. What direction do you see the music going in 1978?


W. H. Well, I think we’re in a very healthy period and I’m pleased about it.

The fact is, there are a lot of youngsters involved in jazz today. Listening to it and participating in it by being members of stage band in high schools and lab bands in colleges. There is probably more interest in jazz today among young people than there ever was, in all the years I’ve been around. So, I feel there is a very good future particularly for big band jazz. Because we’ve got thousands upon thousands of kids involved.


When you think of 15 to 18 players in a high school stage band and we have in the neighborhood of 40 or 45 thousand of these bands in this country alone. And that’s not counting the college bands. It’s a good healthy scene. And of course there is a great deal of interest in Europe and Asia, actually jazz has always been more popular there than here at home.


D. O. You mentioned in an article in Downbeat magazine in 1976 that in a very short while there will be a new sophisticated audience for jazz.


W. H. I think they are here now. I really do. I think that all these young people that are involved in music and studying and learning is making up the most musically educated audience we’ve ever had in the history of American pop music. When I was a young man, a song was good if you could hum it by the second time and that was good enough. In unadulterated rock music they still depend on simplicity. Simplicity can be a real asset but it also can lead to a great deal of monotony.


D.O. Do you think that’s true even though the commercial radio stations are still playing disco and plastic music?


W. H. Yes, but radio has been doing this for years. We’ve had a top 40 for ever. And most of the kids in the stage bands would never have heard about jazz if they weren’t participating in it. But I think we are on the brink of a big change. I hope so and I pray for it every night.


D. O. What do you think will happen to the Big Bands after all the main leaders like yourself are dead?


W. H. Well, I think some of the most important band leaders right now are not as ancient as I am or Count Basie. I think Buddy Rich has quite a few good years left. And I feel the same about Maynard Ferguson. I’m hoping there will be a whole new era of new bands made up of young people.


D.O. What do you think of the Toshiko Akiyoshi Big Band, which is one of the first big bands written for and led by a woman?


W. H. No, that’s not really true; well I guess it’s true to some degree. But women have been involved in big bands and playing in big band since year one. I think Toshiko is doing some very interesting music but I don’t think it’s something that will go on to great heights. It’s really a glorified rehearsal band. And I’m proud that it’s around. But I just don’t think that it’s strong enough in its music.


D. O. Why don’t they work more steadily?


W. H. They depend on studio players. They use players from San Francisco and Los Angelus. Those people will not go on the road. They feel that’s it’s beneath their dignity or something. You have to start from scratch and build bands. Bands of that particular ilk include bands like the Thad Jones and Mel Lewis Jazz Orchestra, which is another glorified rehearsal band. The only time you hear about is when they are in New York playing Monday nights at the Village Vanguard. That’s when all the all-stars that are in town jump in there and have a happiness night. (laughter) And when you see that band somewhere else in the world it’s a whole other group of people, because the New Yorkers won’t leave.


I can’t put much faith in these kinds of groupings. That’s why the people I mention or the people who work constantly, Buddy Rich, Maynard Ferguson, Stan Kenton, Count Basie, my band and so on.


D.O. Do you think that one day it will be economically impossible to travel with a big band?


Danny O’Bryan interviews Woody Herman

Local 11 “Musicians Ball” April 23, 1978




W. H. It has been for many years. (laughter) But those of us who are struggling continue to do it. The last years that Duke Ellington had a band he financed it partially with his tremendous earnings from ASCAP. The Author’s and Composer’s Society of which he was a triple A member. So, he made a great deal of money each year, which he re-invested in the band in order to keep it going.


D. O. Is it hard to find out-standing soloists like Sal Nistico and Bill Chase to travel with the band?


W. H. It’s always difficult to find the right ones and then watch them develop and then they get to one of their peak periods. That’s usually when they make a move. It’s for many reasons. They want to try other things. Other yards look greener.


D. O. I asked Count Basie two weeks ago when he was here if Eddie “Lockjaw” Davis would ever be back in his band. And he said “Oh no,”

He thought his band was too restrictive for a top soloist like that.


W. H. I don’t know I never thought of it that way. There are some players who like to be more inventive and have more blowing time and they should be in a small group. There is no reason for them to be in a big band. But most of my players leave because they get tired of the road and want to stay in once place for a while.


D. O. John Hammond in his recent biography said that a lot of the young players today have great techniques but don’t know how to swing.


W. H. We all have a different concept of what is and isn’t swing. It’s pretty hard to make a statement like that and make it stick. There are some outstanding young players and there are a lot of great technicians who are not outstanding players so, you can’t mix one with the other really. I’ve had some marvelous soloists in the last few years and they are certainly all very young.

Even in this current group I have a trombonist who I think is really outstanding, a young man by the name of Bruce Johnson and my rhythm section I’m very pleased with and they are all extremely young guys and they are blossoming.


D. O. Do you think that since jazz is experiencing a renaissance today that the media will start to loosen up a bit.


W. H. I think that’s what everybody is hoping for. We try to make them aware of what’s going on but it’s a real tough nut to crack because unfortunately for the last many years the most creative people have been delegated to the outside of the business. The people in the media today are dollar sign people. They are only interested in bread. I guess there is nothing wrong with that either but I still think they should hire people who are capable instead of trying to do themselves.


There was a very interesting thing on “60 Minutes” on CBS. It was on the Disco business. The question was do you think this is an American fad. Once again it’s the monotony of it. If you keep a steady beat to the point of stopping, it will stop. I don’t think that’s conducive to creative thinking, composing or finding a direction. The whole purpose of it is to make dollars. It’s about bucks.


D. O. Money ruins everything it touches.


W. H. When it gets to the point that it’s that obvious, our whole system it’s typical of the age we’re living in. That’s because most kids today whether they are interested in music or not, are definitely interested in how to become Super Stars, because that’s how you get all the bread and how you become very important to your peers. There’s very little thought on how to learn to do something very, very well and become a perfectionist so, sometimes I think we are being mis-guided, all of us.


D. O. Do you think that despite this there is hope?


W. H. Yes, I do and I think the music educators should be commended because they are doing the greatest service that could be done for American popular music.


D. O. Do you think music reflects the mood of the time?






W. H. Sure, definitely we had a long period of heavy Acid Rock. Now there is a lot of cross-over music but usually it’s crossed over to try and get some dollars once again. But I’ve lived with the very old philosophy, “money is only important when you don’t have any.” Then it becomes terribly important. Not too many people think of it that way.


D. O. Besides that it’s relative. When you have a little bit, you spend a little bit. When you have a lot you spend a lot.


What do you think of electronic music?


W. H. It’s almost like anything else, if it enhances the performance by adding it. Then it’s doing a service. But if it’s just used to get people excited in hurry, then it’s not very important.


D. O. I want to thank you personally for the great contributions you’ve made to jazz. You’ve been a patriarch of jazz.


W. H. Well, I’m old. (laughter)


D. O. You’ve given us people like Stan Getz, Flip Phillips and Bill Chase.


W. H. I have a great full career and a good life with it. It’s a hard existence and as you get older it gets harder. But basically if I had to do it all over again, I’d probably do it pretty much the same, because I enjoy the music very much. All the other hassles I don’t. Music I truly enjoy.


D. O. Music is constantly changing but the main thing is to keep the quality up.


W. H. Stravinsky said it best “There are only two kinds of music, good and bad.”


D. O. Here in Louisville the Louisville Orchestra has been doing a lot of work with jazz performers. Sarah Vaughn was here recently and Buddy Rich performed with the orchestra. But a lot of the critics seemed to think the mix didn’t work.





W. H. I don’t know how they were presented but I’ve made quite a few different attempts at working with classical orchestras and I think they were reasonably successful. I don’t think we did anything earth shattering. For instance I had an album called “The Children of Lima” that we did with the Houston Symphony and I’m very proud of it, a good performance by both the orchestra and the band. And I think it was a reasonable wedding.


D. O. You mentioned early in the night that you had a new album out.


W. H. Yes, it’s called “Road Father.” It’s our first direct to disc album. It’s just been out a few weeks and it’s doing very well.


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